Is it a PUA SIN?

[Dionysus]

Is it a sin to sarge another pua friend's target if he obviously isn't doing the work to get her?

I was at a club, and my friend pua (not a wingman) brought this hot asian model hb9. I didn't know she came with him at first, and I was sarging her unconsciously anyway. Then came the kino.

"I see you kino escalating over there! you better watch it!" half-jokingly, he said.

I swore to him I wasn't doing it on purpose. But then ofcourse, the more he made me ignore her, the more she wanted me. The more she kino'd me. The more she fucking chased me.

One point I was sitting with her, and jokingly I grab her hand, smile evil-like and make my friend watch ( I wasn't doing anything to her, I literally just grabbed her hand and held it in the air.

"Hey! I'm watching you!" half-jokingly, again. I laugh, some of the other guys laugh too.

Then I say:

Me: HB9 I can't hang out with you anymore! Stop following me!

Her: Aw!!!

And I scampered off, laughing. Then I realized how playful I was being, and it didn't help.

So the whole night, this hb9 was after me. I felt liek she was a little puppy following her master or something. I seriously just started leaving her alone. She was getting antsy, my friend was getting pissed but hiding it real well. All this time he wasn't doing anything to her. I saw no escalated kino between them.

Later I asked him if I could borrow her as a pivot to go meet girls on the dance floor. He said "Sure..." I saw her talking to some guy who was like, interviewing her or something. I grabbed her hand and told her she's going to help me find some girls.

We went to the dance floor. Kino'd. Left her and found 2 other hot girls to dance with.

The night went on. I was getting pissed because my friend was doing jackshit.




Days later I found out my friend never managed to do anything with the girl and he stopped calling her. Nothing happened between them!!!!

Should I have gotten her number in secret and contacted her later? I feel like it was partially my fault that I didn't get her number anyway. She wanted me. Models seem like the easiest targets. I didn't use any routines, just stories.

Opinions?

[Ian Smith]

Shoulda got her number, not secretively. If he isn't gonna step up to the plate, then it's yours to knock out of the park. Back off at first, but if he was sitting around idly this whole time...I would have definitely continued things with her.

[Bob]

hey dude.. if your friend brings a girl to hook up with and she's not interested that way then the more power to you man... she was obviously more interested in you than in your friend.

As for closing your friend's target, just talk to him as you're not stealing her if he doesn't have her. To give you an example, I was hanging out with my friend and total AFC back in college at a party.. his girl wasn't too interested and on top of it he dared me in front of her that i couldn't steal her.. so i did and had a MLTR with her for about 3 months (and who i turned into a total slut)... he was mad for a bit but ultimately that incident is what allowed me to start teaching him how this shit's done. I then got him to read The Game.

Now for results, within a month of his reading it he's f closed two girls one of which it turns out was the one i stole from him at the party who he managed to actually build attraction with properly this time.

What it boils down to is if she's showing him IOIs and he has claim, then let him be.. but if he has no chance.. taker her to teach him a lesson and as he sees you doing work, he'll be more receptive to learning how to do it.. I bet you'd enjoy going out with him as an equal wingman.. he's just gotta learn and listen

[Nick Krygier]

I think you are obligated to DHV your friend a bit and not AMOG him and embarrass him like you did when you were calling him out saying your off-limits. If you would have done that to me I would have asked to talk with you outside for a moment away from the group, and you would come back and DHV the shit out of me or I would never sarge/hang out with you again.

My personal Opinion
Friends come first. Don't low ball your friends on purpose, and if you did it on accident then try to make up for it somehow.

First thing I would have done was DHV my friend a lot and allow him to lead convos and such
If he fails after that, then its fair game like Meth and NUmen said
Just because you initally gamed her doens't mean you couldn't have let your friend be alpha when you two were togetehr to help him out

[Holden]

I agree with Jack to extent. You have to initially put the effort out there for your friend to benefit.

But if your friend doesn't pickup on it, or just doesn't try, well fuck him. Cause he's just not manning up (Inner Game isssues) to the play at hand. If he has forfeited, then he's just himself to blame and not you.

But next time in favour of convention: At least tell youyr man that he isn't doing enough or he has squashed this chance with this girl and you're taking over. If you at least warn him of the heads up, he won't be surprised' BUT REMEMBER! You are telling him, not asking permission, if he can't hack it why should you suffer???

[Hector M.]

The others basically summed it up.

When in those situations, honor as a person comes in. Depending on the situation, if a fellow man is doing his job seducing a woman, and is making progress, let them be.

In this situation, your wing failed to act. He didn't do what he was called to do. That calls for punishment: Stealing his target.

Dont worry none Dionysus. The next time your wing chickens out, go for the kill, and chastise him for not being ballsy.

[Patrick Laffey]

it depends how much of a friend he is and how much she means to him. you can do it just be prepared to lose a friend. in the long run, i would say stay with the friend

[Action]

I guess I'm looking at this in two ways: Your mate's not performing, you are, you get the girl. Maybe that will help spur him onto greater things.
On the other hand, he might get to greater things faster if you help him along, DHV him, give him a taste of success.
Like Lucid says, it depends on how much of a friend he is. Do you want a good wing, or a fuck?

[Joe G.]

This is a highly debatable topic... For me, personally, if my friend defines a girl as his target, that puts her off the radar for me. As long as mutual respect is given between PUAs, each man will have his target without stepping on each other's feet. This also eliminates having awkward grudges with your friend.

[Gammbit]

help your mate out...

and if or when he fail u should take the cake

[Nova]

If it were me I would have pulled him to the side and told him he needs to step his game up (or start it) because as of now it's not working. I'd then tell him if he didn't make an effort or failed to pick her up that she'd be free game for me. Basically what the others said, but I'd let him know about it before I went ahead and just did it.

[Scot McKay]

Always put your buddies first. This will take you far in life, and it says a lot about you to the highest quality women you want the most.

[Grin]

I think you are obligated to DHV your friend a bit and not AMOG him and embarrass him like you did when you were calling him out saying your off-limits. If you would have done that to me I would have asked to talk with you outside for a moment away from the group, and you would come back and DHV the shit out of me or I would never sarge/hang out with you again.

My personal Opinion
Friends come first. Don't low ball your friends on purpose, and if you did it on accident then try to make up for it somehow.

First thing I would have done was DHV my friend a lot and allow him to lead convos and such
If he fails after that, then its fair game like Meth and NUmen said
Just because you initally gamed her doens't mean you couldn't have let your friend be alpha when you two were together to help him out

I totally agree with that^ man! i mean fuck Hbs!! friends come first and i'd advise you to
watch where your hands are going, don't escalate too much on a friend's target

If it were me I would have pulled him to the side and told him he needs to step his game up (or start it)

And yea man, even though he's not paying u or anything, i believe its your Duty to sort of pull him off to the side and give him some advice!

i'd like to say that i'm glad u didn't number. and when ur sarging against naturals and AMOGs, that is EXACTLY what you should do. where you totally have her chasing you down after some sweet kino! =)

[Kris Hansen]

So here's the question that's bugging me. What did your friend do wrong? Where did he fuck up with this girl? Because to be honest, it's not your responsibility to stay off your buddy's girl (unless the guy's an AFC; then, we play nice). If the guy's a PUA, it's his responsibility to _keep_ her.

Your buddy fucked up, plain and simple. And he'll need to learn from that. So let him know how and when and where he fucked up, so that he doesn't fuck up next time. Coddling him and holding his hand while some dick cock-blocks him (even if that dick is you), is not going to make him any better.

[Ian Smith]

Truth.

[Ray Casanova]

I'd go for it, if he couldn't keep her interested then shes fair game man.

[Yosv]

Everyone is saying how friends are more important than HB's. If so than why the fuck does 1HB matter? It just seems a bit hypocritical that because he sarges you HB you'd stop hanging out with him
Get your priorities straight.

[Kris Hansen]

I never said anything to the effect of "Friends are more important than HB's." I said that Dionysus' buddy fucked up, and as a friend, it is his responsibility to tell him that.

Something that I think needs more discussion in the community is this: your friends can be replaced. In a lot of cases, especially in the beginning, it is advisable that you dump anyone and everyone who would hold you back. If your PUA buddy throws a fit over you gaming his girl, well then fuck him. The guy's a bitch and he needs to step up his game. (Again, AFC friends are exempt from this clause; we should really be nice to the AFCs, they're not fighting with the same weapons we are).

I'm not saying you should have a free-for-all in the bar every weekend. If your PUA friend has identified his target and you move in on said target consciously, you're a cock-knocker. If you do it subconsciously, though, it doesn't signify anything about you. It shows that there is a deep problem with your friend's game, and you should help him sort that out. I can unconsciously pull girls, yeah, but I can't if a half-decent pick-up artist or natural is actually running game on those girls. The only time I can pull another guys target (without thinking about it) is if he has fucked up.

Help your buddy out. Keep him from fucking up.

[Dionysus]

Someone herei nthis topic mentioned something about DHVing for him...

Let me clear this up. This guy has ultimate DHV already because he is this big producer now that he dropped out of his last year at USC. He is great at networking and is always able to find ppl who are willing to drop money on film projects he is working on. This club we were at was partially an event for him. Everyone there knew him as producer and actor, and his face kept appearing on the T.V.s they had set up there. He acts in online series a lot, and 1 out of the 3 movies they were screening at the event starred him in it.
I don't think he had a problem with DHV.

He has read Art of Seduction, The Game...etc...he was one of the people that got me into the game...it just felt like that night he was holding me back without actually doing anything for himself. I think he was just expecting his LeaderOfMen trait and his Social Proof to work for him. Whenever he would attempt anything else, it seemd a little try-hard.

Thanks for the advice, guys. I'm glad I got so much feedback on this.