Israel...

[icemanmrfreeze]

I'm taking a course on middle eastern politics right now...What do you guys think about the state of Israel?

[Bob]

that's a very broad question bud.

1. What have they taught you so far about Israel so far?
2. What nationality is your professor and what is his opinion on Israel?
3. What specifically do you want to know about Israel.

just for the record.. Israel is a country you know.. not a state

[icemanmrfreeze]

I'm curious about the conditions under which it gained sovereignty...It's legitimacy in particular

[Bob]

you first have to check this out http://www.isracast.com/article.aspx...S-ITS-OWN-FUEL

Israeli Inventions that you'll find quite interesting
-Instant messaging technology
-cell phones
-anti-virus technology
-The best AIDS Treaments to date
-revolutionary diabetes treatments
-many other leading medical treatments
-A machine that immediately filters blood when you give it and lets you know if you're good or not. Here in the US you give blood and they get back to you in a few weeks letting you know if it's usable and what diseases they have. This machine gives results before they even finish drawing your blood.
- virtual keyboard
- a computer chip made of living organisms and DNA which can produce 330 trillion actions per second
-a computer that allows deaf people to use cell phones
a pen like devise that can diagnose diseases just by touching a patient and have results in less than an hour
-the algorithm code used for email
-The interface program for apple and microsoft (developed by a 17 year old high school kid and let me tell you, bill gates shit a brick if not a whole wall of them when this happened)

OTHER INTERESTING FACTS FROM http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1600302/posts

• Israel, the 100th smallest country, with less than 1/1000th of the world's population, can lay claim to the following:
  
• Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to the population in the world.
  
• Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation by a large margin - 109 per 10,000 people - as well as one of the highest per capita rates of patents filed.
  
• In proportion to its population, Israel has the largest number of startup companies in the world. In absolute terms, Israel has the largest number of startup companies than any other country in the world, except the US (3,500 companies mostly in hi-tech).
  
• Israel is ranked #2 in the world for venture capital funds right behind the US.
  
• Outside the United States and Canada, Israel has the largest number of NASDAQ listed companies.
  
• Israel has the highest average living standards in the Middle East. The per capita income in 2000 was over $17,500, exceeding that of the UK.
  
• With an aerial arsenal of over 250 F-16s, Israel has the largest fleet of the aircraft outside of the US.
  
• Israel's $100 billion economy is larger than all of its immediate neighbors combined.
  
• On a per capita basis, Israel has the largest number of biotech start-ups.
  
• Twenty-four percent of Israel's workforce holds university degrees - ranking third in the industrialized world, after the United States and Holland - and 12 percent hold advanced degrees.
  
• Israel is the only liberal democracy in the Middle East.
  
• In 1984 and 1991, Israel airlifted a total of 22,000 Ethiopian Jews at risk in Ethiopia to safety in Israel.
  
• When Golda Meir was elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1969, she became the world's second elected female leader in modern times.
  
• When the U. S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya was bombed in 1998, Israeli rescue teams were on the scene within a day - and saved three victims from the rubble.
  
• Israel has the third highest rate of entrepreneurship - and the highest rate among women and among people over 55 - in the world.
  
• Relative to its population, Israel is the largest immigrant-absorbing nation on earth. Immigrants come in search of democracy, religious freedom, and economic opportunity.
  
• Israel was the first nation in the world to adopt the Kimberly process, an international standard that certifies diamonds as "conflict free."
  
• According to industry officials, Israel designed the airline industry's most impenetrable flight security. U. S. officials now look to Israel for advice on how to handle airborne security threats.
  
• In 1991, during the Gulf War, the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra played a concert wearing gas masks as scud missiles fired by Saddam Hussein fell on Tel Aviv.
  
• Israel has the world's second highest per capita of new books.
  
• Israel is the only country in the world that entered the 21st century with a net gain in its number of trees, made more remarkable because this was achieved in an area considered mainly desert.
  
• Israel has more museums per capita than any other country.
  
• Medicine... Israeli scientists developed the first fully computerized,no-radiation, diagnostic instrumentation for breast cancer.
  
• An Israeli company developed a computerized system for ensuring proper
  
• administration of medications, thus removing human error from medical treatment. Every year in U. S. hospitals 7,000 patients die from treatment mistakes.
  
• Israel's Givun imaging developed the first ingestible video camera, so small it fits inside a pill. Used to view the small intestine from the inside, the camera helps doctors diagnose cancer and digestive disorders.
  
• Researchers in Israel developed a new device that directly helps the heart pump blood, an innovation with the potential to save lives among those with heart failure. The new device is synchronized with the heart's mechanical operations through a sophisticated system of sensors.
  
• Technology... With more than 3,000 high-tech companies and start-ups, Israel has the highest concentration of hi-tech companies in the world (apart from the Silicon Valley).
  
• In response to serious water shortages, Israeli engineers and agriculturalists developed a revolutionary drip irrigation system to minimize the amount of water used to grow crops.
  
• Israel has the highest percentage in the world of home computers per capita.
  
• Israel leads the world in the number of scientists and technicians in the workforce, with 145 per 10,000, as opposed to 85 in the U. S., over 70 in Japan, and less than 60 in Germany. With over 25% of its work force employed in technical professions. Israel places first in this category as well.
  
• The cell phone was developed in Israel by Motorola, which has its largest development center in Israel.
  
• Most of the Windows NT operating system was developed by Microsoft-Israel.
  
• The Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed in Israel at Intel.
  
• Voice mail technology was developed in Israel.
  
• Both Microsoft and Cisco built their only R&D facilities outside the US in Israel.
  
• The AOL Instant Messenger was developed in 1996 by four young Israelis.
  
• A new acne treatment developed in Israel, the ClearLight device,produces a high-intensity, ultraviolet-light-free, narrow-band blue light that causes acne bacteria to self-destruct - all without damaging surroundings skin or tissue.
  
• An Israeli company was the first to develop and install a large-scale solar-powered and fully functional electricity generating plant, in southern California's Mojave desert."
  
• All the above while engaged in regular wars with an implacable enemy that seeks its destruction, and an economy continuously under strain by having to spend more per capita on its own protection than any other country on earth. This from a country just 55 years young having started off life on a very frontiers-like basis, whose population had mostly just emerged from the devastating World War II years.

[Bob]

it seems like quite a few people are misinformed about israel. I'll give you a basic idea of what's happened off the top of my head from what i remember learning in school

Over 5000 years ago that land was Israel..
Then the Egyptians took over and enslaved them.
After they were freed israel got their land back
Multiple times they were invaded and they got their land back
2000 years ago rome took over the middle east then pulled out after awhile
During the inquisition spain took over the middle east and did the same
It continued this way until England took over the middle east and after World War II this is where it gets interesting

The US, Russia and England got together to determine who would get what land and how it would be split up and this is what happened to to the middle east....

Many of the countries wanted england out of occupation for years and Israel managed to gain their independence when England gave the middle east back and created borders to divide the countries in the middle east in 1948.

Within a week of Israel's (and other middle eastern countries) independence from England the surrounding middle eastern countries invaded israel and were pushed back.

The main wars went as followed:

1948 - The Arab-Israeli War - Palestine rejected the UN proposal that would have created an Arab and Jewish State (because they were against the creation of a Jewish state. They then invaded Israel and as a result of being pushed back and their aggressive actions, no Arab state was created, only a Jewish state. The war ended with the armistice agreement but israel did capture part of the west bank and gaza strip in this.

1967 - The Six-Day War - In 1967 Egypt drove the UN peackeeping force out of the middle east and then Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabaia, Sudan Tunisia, Morocco, and algeria massed over 300,000 troops and 1000s of tanks and other artillery/vehicles to surround israel (a force more than 4x that of israel's entire army not counting capable civilians and reservists)
As the troops were massing and readying themselves for attack, Israel launched a pre-emptive air force assault to attack Egypts air force and gain air superiority in the impending war. They destroyed virtually all of the aerial vehicles and the airfields to do this and then the war started.
The war ended and israel captured more of the gaza strip as a buffer zone to protect their airport from artillery fire from neighboring countries, the sinai peninsula from egypt, and the golan heights from syria (which is quite a beautiful place i might add). After this war the Soviet Union's relations were strained with the middle east through UN pressure not to supply them with arms

1973 - Yom Kippur War - Egypt, Syria, and Iraq made a surprise attack on Israel during Yom Kippur which is the day of attonement/rest next week actually violating the religious understanding about war as Israel always respected Ramadan and even called cease fires in previous wars to show respect. This attack was because of the humility from the loss of the previous war. Israel's Government at the time even unanimously agreed to give back the golan heights and sinai peninsula in return for a peace agreement but the Middle East Countries basically said what is called the 3 No's, "No Peace, No Recognition, and No Negotiation with Israel." so the offer was withdrawn. by the time Egypt finally agreed, Israel said it was too late due to the ensuing casualties. Egypt ended up backing down because nobody wanted to fight Israel and risk losing more land and other countries would not fight unless Egypt did. Egypt decided it would be a bad idea as their air force was still in shambles and Israel would beat them to oblivion if they tried.

When I went to Israel I listened to a man who was stationed on the Golan Heights when Egypt initiated their surprise attack speak. He told me that they were all sitting there when the attack came suddenly. almost all of the forces on the Golan Heights were killed and the rest were hiding out in the main bunker while the Egyptians were dropping grenades down the hatches for hours on end hoping to kill everybody. Many soldiers in the bunker were wounded and nobody could hear well due to all the grenade blasts. About 5 brave soldiers got together and slipped out a hidden entrance to the bunker to capture a few Egyptian soldiers. They put on the uniforms and used sticky bombs to sneak into the lines and destroy many of the tanks. All 5 made it back to the bunker alive and in time for Israeli reinforcements to drive them back.

This war resulted in the Camp David Accords

2006 - The Lebanon War. Many of you remember the news about Israel bombing Lebanon to hell and back that year. This was because Hezbollah (an extremist group that Lebanon harbors and publicly supports) militants shot rockets into border towns of Israel as a diversion to bomb small Patrol Convoys who came to aid. Of the vehicles that were hit with the militant anti-tank missiles, a few were killed and wounded and a couple were captured and taken prisoner. An Israeli special-ops team tried to attempt a rescue but were killed because Lebanon had a mole in Israel that informed them of the plan.

Israel tried to negotiate their release and demanded the Lebanese government return them but instead the government voiced it's support of Hezbollah and refused. This caused israel to attack which displaced over a million Lebanese citizens and about half that in israelis as well.

The war ended when Lebanon returned the bodies of the captured soldiers to Israel in return for a live Lebanese prisoner that was captured by Israel. Lebanon refuses to stop supporting Hezbollah and until they do so, Israel will not withdraw from border border towns.

1980's well the late 80s to now is when the intifada started.
The middle eastern countries don't attack and hate israel because they want the land. They refuse peace agreements and any form of solution that includes the existence of a Jewish State. It's that simple. As long as a Jewish state exists there will be not be peace.

------------------------
Other news about Israel
Israel and the United States - Israel and United States have an agreement as you've seen here in the US and the US pours money into israel for a reason. It's not because Israel needs the US but vice versa as Israel could defeat all the military forces of every middle eastern country due to their superior skills. The US needs Israel is they are the only good source for intelligence (not to mention the best in the world) on the middle east. Israeli's intelligence branch, Mossad, informed the US about 9/11, the previous oklahoma bombings, the atlanta olympics attack, the embassy attacks overseas and also the USS cole attack but while US intelligence branches take this information they took too long to act as you could see.


If you look at the rankings in different countries military forces it goes as follows from the last report I read a few years ago

Most powerful military
1. US
2. China
3. Israel

Best Air Force
1. Israel
2. US
3. Russia

Best Army
1. US
2. Israel
3. UK

Best Special Ops
1. Israel
2. US
3. UK

Best Military Intelligence
1. Israel
2. UK
3. US

when you look at these rankings remember that Israel only has a population of just over 7 million and they are this good because they have to be.

--------------------------
Israel Globally
Many technological advancements have come out of Israel especially medical advancements through their MP division and their air division Magen David Adom which is the Equivalent to the Christian Red Cross and the Muslim Red Crescent.

Look up Magen David Adom for more information

[Bob]

I visited Israel back in 2004 at the end of the second Intifada and in all honesty I felt safer anywhere I traveled there than even in the nicest neighborhoods of the US. Almost everywhere you go there's an armed on or off duty soldier. Despite all the violence that has happened people live their life just like everything else.

When there's a bombing people don't panic but follow a strict set of rules on how to handle the situation. They also rush to help the wounded. If there's a bomb that goes off here in the US people run and panic and then creep up to watch while in Israel they rush to safety while Helping children first and then follow safety protocols to help the wounded.

The news really only shows the bad things and unfortunately the PAC that handles PR does play a part in some of the news in order to gain non-jewish american's sympathy and understanding of the situation. Of all the political action committees in the US which range from 1-10000+ people the most powerful is from a Jewish organization and is comprised of 5 people. Because of the ignorance of many Americans they feel that gaining sympathy is the best method but for us Jews living here in the US we feel there needs to be a broader education.

When you grow up you read only a select amount of information on african americans, asians, native americans, other races, but there's really nothing about Jews other than the Holocaust.

If you have any other questions feel free to ask me or silverstreak as we're both pretty knowledgeable

[icemanmrfreeze]

At what cost to the Palestinian people have they done all of this "great" stuff...If you look at the history books, you can see why extremism (especially towards Israel) gains such widespread support in the Middle East. Even something like the movie Munich, which I never questioned before seems to so much bias embedded in it. You have a group of displaced and oppressed people, without a land to call their own (because it was taken from them), rebelling against an establishment that doesn't give a shit about their well-being. On top of that Israel doesn't just avoid getting to the root of the problem, they just hunt them down to all corners of the globe and kill them.

[Bob]

I don't know what you're being taught in class but the root of the problem really has nothing to do with the fact that israel had the land first, had it taken away and gained it back many times throughout the last 5000 years, or the fact they've attacked us and we've retaliated or made a pre-emtpive strike

It comes down to the simple fact that Israel is under the constant threat of attack every single day simply because it exists! Middle eastern countries are simply against the existence of a Jewish State period! As long as Israel exists the extremist side of Islam will always be on the offensive.

If you look at the wars
Independence War - England occupied and controlled the Middle East until the countries were given back their control. Jews always lived in that area but due to Greek, Roman, Spanish, and English rule they didn't have their own country for a long time. Israel agreed to the division and Palestine/Egypt/Syria/Lebanon/Iraq etc said no, we will not accept accept this simply because we will not accept a Jewish State. So they attacked.

6 day war - They surrounded Israel from all sides with a force over 4x greater than that of israel and israel made a pre-emptive strike strictly on the opposition's air force to guarantee air dominance

Yom Kippur War - On the most holy day of the year they make a surprise attack on us because they were ashamed of the fact that they lost the 6 day war

Lebanon War - They shot rockets into border towns and when troops went to investigate they attacked troops and kidnapped the ones that weren't wounded. Their gov't backed the actions and refused to hand them over. We traded them a live prisoner just for the remains of the two that were kidnapped as a final peace solution.

Israel does take offense when needed but aside from the Militant sects of Islam, the citizens of Israel whether Jewish or not get along fairly well with the non-extremist Muslim sects.

As I said before, the reason there isn't peace isn't because Israel doesn't want peace or many Muslims don't, it's because the radical and militant sects will continue to attack until there is not Jewish State and Israel ceases to exist.

Don't rely on movies to depict any middle east conflicts well as they would be too gory to actually make a movie about.


The only time I can recall when Israel acted out of character and on the offensive was sometime between 1946 and 1948 before the war of independence. Surrounding countries were planning an assault and England had only a small handful of peacekeepers in Israel and told them that they were not allowed an army. They sent two covert assassins to kill the English diplomat in charge of this decision and afterward England pulled out and Israel trained their army just in time to defend against the attack.


When you look at it proportionate to population every single attack that is carried out against Israel is worse than a 9/11 here in the US. more people die per thousand there than here. Remember what we did after Sept 11th? Imagine how much Israel is really holding back.

[Patrick Laffey]

ughh... again the public school system corrupts another one. whenever you take a class like this, take it with a grain of salt.

i agree with bob though. people were born and raised in isreal. what are they supposed to do just get up and move? to where?

[SilverStreak]

Bob, you're feeling are strong but I don't feel you're saying everything:

Most recentlywe invaded Lebanon with no real attack plan - even Bush had a better one going into Iraq. It ended disasterously.

-In creating Israel and the War for Independance, many many Arab settlers and Bedouins were moved from their homes - sometimes forcefully, sometimes not, sometimes encouraged by Arabs with the idea that after they (the Arabs) won they'd just go reestablish their homes!

Right now, corruption has been somewhat amuck with Prime Ministers and more. It's going somewhat downhill politically as of the time.

Also, Israel is referred to as the State of Israel. It is a country, but also a state in some kind of term of the word...(?)

A most recent thing: Gilad Shalit, Ehud, And Goldwasser kidnapped over two years ago. Just recently, we traded ex-cons and people attempting to kill Israelis for Goldwasser and Regev dead or alive (we weren't sure if they been killed or not). They gave us back two coffins with their remains inside.

[icemanmrfreeze]

Yeah I'm not completely glib regarding your "country"...but I just question some things...Were Zionist claims completely legitimate? Why was the Holocaust used as such a point of leverage in their political demands? If the Jewish claim to their independent state was so valid, why would groups like the PLO form and attack Israeli's abroad? I feel like with the policies in place right now, you guys will never survive the long haul. The amount of Arab extremism only grows the more frustrated they become, and they out number you guys like crazy...Why wouldn't Israel come back and negotiate with the Palestinians, and make some concessions regarding lands mentioned in UN mandates during the 40's and so forth...

[Bob]

I'll start off with the reason why we can't conform to some of the demands. Israel offered much of the occupied territory back to Palistine and even forced Israelis to relocate in return for peace. The agreement was made and attacks stopped... for about a month.. then they started up again and palestine wanted more because Hamas took control.

Virtually all of the extremist islamic organizations continue to attack Israelis and jews globally simply because a Jewish State exists. These groups will continue to fight as long as it does.

This is like the Protestants attacking the Vatican and saying they will not stop until the Vatican is eliminated and completely destroyed because they won't tolerate the existence of a catholic state.

As for "Zionist claims".. they are legitimate but much of the news isn't always perpetrated by the Jewish people. If you watched the debates, Palin brought up the Holocaust. We didn't want to hear that and her comments about Israel caused the Republican party to lose almost all of the votes from the Jewish population that watched or heard that part.

The reason we can't give all of the land back is because we need a buffer zone of protection in many areas, especially the land near the airport for example, because they need that buffer zone to protect against terrorists firing shoulder fired rockets at airplanes. This has happened many times but luckily El Al and the airport is well equipped with countermeasures.

Feel free to ask any more questions you have.

[SilverStreak]

I disagree about Palin and so does my father... :-P

Also, the Holocaust and Zionist claims go together...Jews were not allowed into many countries after the holocaust and even during. The need for some place for all these refugees was great.

--more later

[AntiHero]

We get it Bob,You are obviously jewish.